But we dont have time on this podcast. My personal belief, not speaking on behalf of anyone else, my personal belief is that that structure is designed to fail, because elders cant elder in that structure. They know there would be swift and sure discipline, if not firing, even with one mistakedepending on the severity of the misbehavior. 1 talking about this. And I realized that as we were discussing this, that there might be some people who have heard about what happened at Willow Creek, but somewhat superficially, through the headlines and dont really know beneath the surface. So Im very much looking forward to our time together today. I think that was a move of God, a move of the Holy Spirit. But essentially, it was the board being asked to deal with matters of policy and then all matters of implementation really get left to the vocational staff in the church. What makes you stick with that model and believe it can still be used despite how badly that model has been abused? I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. Jill In the early 2000s, as Stuart and Jill transitioned into minister-at-large roles and spent more time traveling to serve the global church, an additional voice was added in order to bless the supporters ofTelling the Truth. I know the owners Dan and Kurt Marquart personally, and I can say without reservation that they truly run their business with honesty, integrity and transparency. About Stuart and Jill Briscoe Fortunately, we have not had so much as one complaint about any one of our pastors or staff members. Hes also the chairman of the elder board at a multisite megachurch in Dallas, Texas. You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. Theyre involved in their own issue right now. Subscribe Sign up for my daily email devotionals and to stay in touch! As a lawyer whos represented some of Bill Hybels victims Mitch Little has seen a side of Willow Creek that few others have. God uses the weak things of this world to confound the strong, right? So you caught them before that anything actually happened? How are you? And unless theyre pollinated by hand, on the one day that the bloom opens, they wont make anything. I was blown away. Well, and that is one aspect of the story that I wanted to explore together because I know that what happened at Willow from my understanding of speaking with Vonda and several victims is that it was far worse, the abuse there and far more pervasive than most people know, and thats one of the frustrations I know of a lot of the victims is that Willow hasnt publicly acknowledged that or publicly said how bad it was. And its not something you can control like traditional mainstream media. And while youre at it, wed really appreciate it if you help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. When you say the IT department, its my understanding you came into some information about emails getting destroyed. When the when the mans lying on the side of the road, naked and bleeding, theyre the priests who cross the street. Well, since you brought it up, youre gonna youre gonna have to address the Vanilla Bean. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. It involves a level of compartmentalization that is truly stunning. I appreciate you so much and look forward to visiting with you again soon. And its pervasive, and people are, theyre using it. So when you have someone who is trusted, whos supposed to be an expert, you know, like a pastor, like a longtime senior pastor whos supposed to be a theological expert, and someone whos in authority like a senior pastor, people are willing to do things to satisfy that person that they would not otherwise do, even if those things seem harmful to another person. And if you think its not, you know, go and look in your church building right now, if youre quarantined under COVID, or youre not gathering. They didnt have the ability to move quickly. Im Julie Roys. I am thrilled to be here. So I was really struggling with my faith. Guest Bios Show Transcript Many times, those who have experienced spiritual abuse are retraumatized when they try to speak about whats happened. He, Becky and their kids have been part of the fabric of BT for so long, it is Nobody has said they had intercourse with Bill. In our church, we have a no tolerance policy. Happened so often, I quit altogether. :), I would strongly urge you to research Voice of the Martyrs. That goes to the guarding role that Attorney Mitch shared. So, and youre the chairman of your board. You have to have a lead pastor who creates a strong culture of accountability. I was kind of thrust into the middle of it out of love for wanting to help my friends and man, that thing escalated pretty quickly. But I had limited contact with him. And these men are good actors. Telling another woman, how she looks in a dress and how it accentuates her body, everything up to an alleged affair, to Pat Baronowski, Bill Hybels longtime assistant, stating in the New York Times said Bill Hybels made her obtain pornography and they watched it together. And its designed to be acretive, right that they gain strength over time. Lawyers are, by definition, advocates, right? And theres an element to which a church like Willow Creek was a global church, right? Im so glad that theyre godly men like you serving. What I need most is what I dont have. I think the load needs to be shared. Amen. You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. Because it was lawyers advice, you know, and its like, where does the word of God play into our decision making? Yeah, right. (See page 54 and following) But lets talk about since were talking about the media, Willow Creek had unbelievable resources at its disposal, right. I think thats dangerous. They were almost sacred and benevolent and unable to do wrong. At least, thats how I saw it. WebPete Briscoe is a podcaster and evangelical pastor. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. The thing that is so terrifying is that someone who has been a senior pastor in an organization like that is not beyond it. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. And today Im excited to be speaking with Mitch Little. Can you imagine what that does for book sales to be on stage at the Global Leadership Summit among people all over the world and touted as an expert in something? He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. I am with you in this sad place of justified disappointment in the church. Everything started to make sense. I think it took courage. Briscoe WebSince that time he has ministered on every continent, written more than 40 books, pastored a church for 30 years, and founded a media ministry called Telling the Truth which now broadcasts daily worldwide. And a lot of us who sat in the congregation and received from them were, you know, duped and we bought it. The church is literally a collection of people. At that age, I had never had someone in spiritual authority lie or manipulate me. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. Its all a Business and Power tool and stage for Virtue Signaling. Well, early on in the process after the Tribune article, we had to make a decision, How are we going to fight a machine of this size that is basically promulgating lies about these women and their families and their supporters? And I reached out to people that I already knew within, you know, the watch blogging community. I know about the deleted emails. That has been documented and proven through therapy notes. Mitch is an attorney, a church elder and an advocate for abuse victims. Pete has offered to And in the few times Ive spoken with him, I found his insights to be profound. Destroyed by a staff person is my understanding. I mean, it was a great time. Its scripturally rooted. So, while I have strong feelings about this, as you can imagine being a lawyer, but at all points, legal advice has to be subservient to Scripture. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. But if you have a pastor with a glaring character flaw youre fooling yourself if you think youre gonna keep that character flaw in line with a pastor who doesnt put Jesus Christ first in his life, am I right? Do you understand what Im saying? How do you get people to come to church when there are more authentic people in the bars? Likewise. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. Is that correct? Hes a complex character. I do. And I really was hopeful that there was going to be a public apology, and yet, None. I was blown away. I know from hearing from men, that that Bill abused men emotionally, spiritually while they were working there. You know, when you have somebody like Bryan Loritts, who when hes talking about why when he was at a former church, he didnt disclose to the church that they had a sexual predator among them for six months. To us, he was Stu, Dad and Poppa and we already miss him achingly." So Im guessing youre not against lawyers being on board. When you think about the economic reach of an organization that was that size within evangelicalism, my goodness, even Christianity Today was scared to run articles about it. The news of Petes resignation landed heavy on my heart. I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. Leave them alone. I can see the elders (more than half of which were women), and people in general saying, It was only a hug. Its one of the beauties and the deformities of social media is social media is agile. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. Senior pastors dont need advocates. Your browser does not support JavaScript. And I think there is a healthy fear. I think there was a culture of pride at Willow that basically said, We are the elite of the Christian world. Let me give you some examples. How do spot a safe pastorand can. Powerful ministry at some points. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. Hes one of the good guys. Jill and Stuart came to the States from England. This was an excellent interview and elders need to read this interview. And I remember you saying once that you had gotten a manual, I think it was from the ECFA, and boy, we could talk about them. Its not okay. Please note, our website requires JavaScript to be supported. I just want to say this was not someone who acted on any behavior at our church, but had someone who was in the process of grooming someone else. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. Can you imagine how many books that sold her? I mean, that is just huge. And I could explain why I think thats funny, but you have to have extreme accountability, the larger your platform gets. Okay, how it didnt bring accountability. Basically, theyre a rubber stamp. I think, as believers, we should be standing for truth, we should not look the other way. WebPete Briscoe is a podcaster and evangelical pastor. Its good to be visiting with you again. Below is a link to a PDF of the article World Magazine did on a sex abuse scandal involving VOM. And my understanding was the elder board set some boundaries for Clinton to be able to come and speak. Theres a lot of church boards that operate that way. Today were talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. Can I talk about Scot McKnight for a second? To me, Bill did not come across as a predator, flirty or suggestive with women. Pete Briscoe @petebriscoe 12 Dec 2021. For the next 90 minutes, Pete Briscoe enraptured us with his presentation of The Bema.. Mike is a dear friend and Im sad this day has come. Later Telling the Truth began airing in several countries in southeast Asia and across 10 countries in southern Africa. Nobody who is an elder at a church should have any aspect of their identity wrapped up in either the role of being an elder or in the success or failure of the organization. Pete Briscoes father, Stuart Briscoe, who I loved dearly, hes not in good health, I wish he was, I wish he could hear this and Id wish him well. And I can only imagine what the economic forces are behind the scenes for that, but it really disappoints me, that that hasnt happened. I was blown away. So its more than flirty words or suggestions. Right. And I do think theres a spiritual stronghold, I hope and pray that it will be broken in our area. He now coaches Pete Briscoe | Brookfield WI. ) So, Willows pride did not allow them to see any flaws in their leadership, especially their premier leader. Its my understanding that was a watershed moment. At the end of the day the aftermath of destruction is felt on so many levels by so many people and we all react differently in our humanness. Youre absolutely right. And yet here we see a church thats ostensibly about serving God, and its about proclaiming the gospel and yet this is happening within the church. They made a lot of friends. Yet, Scripture and to how to teach it became new and deep and exciting every week as I listened to Pete in the short three years I have been at Bent Tree. If you go back and you look at Bill Hybels books in retrospect, Im amazed at some of the things that are contained in his books that people became okay with. I dont know the answer but rampant clergy abuse just took my discontentment to a whole new level. They show up, they sell books. I think he lost it. WebLearn More About Pete Today - Pete Briscoe God loves you to distraction, There is nothing you can do to make Him love them more or less, And, that Life with this Lover God is rich beyond description, regardless of your performance. But what happens when there is a sheep within the flock who needs to be defended? Much has been written on establishing criteria for board member selection. You have to have a strong culture of accountability. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. "For many of you, he was preacher, pastor, mentor or friend. The church said in essence, Tsk, tsk. One of those is that you had your senior pastor resign kind of suddenly. But now my faith in the whole institution is shattered. Because we represent their interests. They need accountability. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. I totally agree with you Julie on how I viewed the Clergy and Church growing up. So I want you to think about this while you know Bill Hybels is being accused of doing awful things by a dozen women. There are therapy notes to support her story. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. Like so many of you, I love Pete. So glad to see you feature Mitch Little. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. I have plenty of authentic friends just not at church. You know, Willow creeks pastors family members benefit from the Penumbra of Willow Creek and its just sheer size within evangelicalism. Whats our theology? Is that right? And this is a huge problem in the Evangelical Church in the southern baptist church, I mean, just absolutely massive problem where so often the predators covered up instead of brought to justice. Thats a bad default state. Now youre a lawyer. and I found these people in those imperfect churches! But they spoke. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. About Stuart and Jill Briscoe I And then everyone could say, Oh, how sad that that one person did that one thing. The radio program began to attract listeners and supporters, enabling the ministry to expand its broadcasting to a growing number of stations throughout the United States and abroad. The outside investigation report said something along the lines of, Bill Hybels hundreds or thousands of emails with this woman were, not available. Well, as it turns out my understanding from talking to witnesses, those emails were actually destroyed. I appreciate your feedback. I hear you say that and I believe in accountability really strongly. Today were talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. And that was how Bill deformed his accountability structure. Hes like, I wasnt trying to protect the man, who by chance was his brother in law. Briscoe So thank you. By the way, the best thing that was said in the recording is that if character isnt there, none of the regulations will matter, and if character is there, one doesnt need the regulations. Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Part II, Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches, Part 2, https://world.wng.org/sites/default/files/issues/pdf/world_sep012018.pdf, https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. Its a serious analog for what happened at Willow. And so I do think its a healthy thing when youre afraid of doing wrong, because it will be brought up and you will be held accountable. If you go back through Willow Creeks archives, you can see all the, you know, the authors of books who came in and were platformed at Willow Creek. And this is whats so difficult. This is Chicago Tribune. This is people who are dissillusioned, who wanted big jobs at Willow and didnt get them. But when Scot, the the intra tribal dissenter steps up and says, This is wrong, things shifted. Briscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. I would love to see Chicago experience revival. The priests who cross the street, right? Why did so many look the other way for so long? And its like, now someone inside the tribe has said, Something is wrong here and it must be dealt with. And it took someone of Scot McKnights gravitas to be able to shift the discussion at Willow. Toward that end, the site requires that people use their full name when commenting. But he had the emotional and spiritual fortitude to say, You know what? Well, and thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. Yeah, my understanding of that of the history has come from interviewing witnesses, talking to people who have served in those roles and hearing their stories at Willow. Many more than even Vonda Dyer knew. That is not a matter of policy. Talk to me about how you saw this playing out at Willow Creek. We are egalitarian and sophisticated, and we are Gods chosen church to show how ministry is supposed to be done. Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 "of natural causes unexpectedly" according to a tweet from his son, Pete Briscoe. Tell us what you learned through you know, bringing this person to light, confronting him and dealing with the entire situation that we can learn from as a church. Pete was preaching from Hebrews, and he was making the New Covenant come alive before all of us. And this is one of the I think exciting things. And if you dont have a character to lead, no manual is going to help you. It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. And so when you see behaviors that look like grooming, you know, John Calvin, Im not a Calvinist. Although theres been some. Everyone I knew from childhoodparents, grandparents, pastors, Sunday School teacherswas upright and honest. Well, I want to turn our discussion to what youve experienced at your own church, which is a multi-site mega church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area, because those are things where youve been able to apply some of these lessons that youve learned from watching the negative example maybe of Willow Creek, youve learned an awful lot from going through crisis at your own church. Yeah, totally agree. I have been a child of God since I was four and in ministry most of my life. But its an analog. Was there any evidence found that he actually had an affair? Yeah, apparently its not going to happen. He now coaches Pete Briscoe | Brookfield WI. What eventually broke the culture of secrecy and protection? Pete grew up in a home with intelligent and committed parents: both So appreciate. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. God is doing a new work both in the lives of the Briscoe's and in the life of Bent Tree. Like so many of you, I love Pete. And someone Im extremely glad is serving in church leadership. But at 22, I completely bought it. And I thought, I think I knew what he was doing when he named it that, but heres why I think its so ironic. He was running and we were praying that he would surrender fully to God. And heres what we have to do as people leading churches, okay, you have to understand what the signs of grooming are so one of the things that I did that really helps me, my good friend, Boz Tchividjian, put out a book through his organization G.R.A.C.E. Lets say you have you have six or eight members who are saying, Guys, we need to fire this person. WebIt is with heavy hearts that the Elders of Bent Tree announce that Pete Briscoe has submitted his resignation as Senior Pastor. Absolutely. And that that was something that taught you an awful lot about how elder board should deal with sexual impropriety or sexual abuse within their own walls. Its M-I-L-G-R-A-M the Milgram experiment, but basically American researchers were trying to figure out after World War II, why so many in German society were willing to go along with the Nazis or go along with their leadership, do incalculably horrible things to people. So you can go to Amazon and enter in Boz Tchividjian and his book will pop up but you need to know what youre looking for because people who are sexual predators, they have an acuity for blending into society in ways that they dont stand out like this is not like, you know, the sexual predator in your church is not some, you know, grease ball sitting outside your kids ministry just kind of looking for a way to get at, like, thats our common image of what a sexual predator is. Theres another circumstance that I became aware of where The board had a 360 Review done on Hybels and his leadership and some problems they were experiencing with his management style from, you know, bullying, abusive style. , Dad and Poppa and we were praying that he would surrender fully God. Will be broken in our church, right these people in those imperfect churches tribe has said, we the... Look forward to visiting with you in this sad place of justified in! Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 `` of natural causes unexpectedly '' according to PDF! Men emotionally, spiritually while they were working there new work both the... It took someone of Scot McKnights gravitas to be profound understanding was the pastor... Retraumatized when they try to speak about whats happened spiritual authority lie or manipulate.. Protect the man, who wanted big jobs at Willow that basically said, we should not look the way. A place where people can agree to disagree over this issue at that,... 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Role that Attorney Mitch shared, on the severity of the Martyrs it must be dealt.... Dedicated to reporting the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart Jills... Its my understanding from talking to witnesses, those emails were actually.... Requires that people use their full name when commenting needs to be able to come and speak he shares his... And 13 grandchildren one of those is that you had your senior pastor in an organization like that not., grew up in a home with intelligent and committed parents: both so.! Called Telling the Truth and restoring the church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders to! Its my understanding you came into some information about emails getting destroyed not against lawyers being board. Actually destroyed, where does the word of God, a move the. So much for listening to the Roys Report, a church like Willow Creek and its,... 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